Local Union
No: 104

Special Interview

Michael Martin: A Man of Good Character

(The following is an interview with Michael Martin, Member of Parliament (MP) and Speaker of the House of Commons of the British Parliament. This interview was granted to Sheet Metal Workers' Local Union No. 104 on May 1, 2001. Brother Martin began his path to the top as an apprentice, then journeyman British Union Sheet Metal Worker. Sheet Metal Workers' Local Union No. 104 wishes to thank Brother Martin for allowing us the time and opportunity for this interview. We also wish to thank our friend, Brother John Barnes, for helping to arrange for this interview.)

Sheet Metal Workers' Local Union No. 104:
Thank you for taking the time to speak with us Mr. Speaker, we appreciate this opportunity. I've been reading much of the material about your life and really applaud your coming from the trade and reaching the position that you have. This is the kind of activism that many of us strive for here in the United States.

THE RIGHT HONORABLE MICHAEL MARTIN MP, SPEAKER:
Thank very much. That's good of you to say that.

Sheet Metal Workers' Local Union No. 104:
I saw two different ages for when you first entered your apprenticeship. One report said 15 and one said 16. Which age did you enter the trade at?

THE RIGHT HONORABLE MICHAEL MARTIN MP, SPEAKER:
Well, it would be 16. Because, I started as a steward boy at 15, before you started the trade proper. So, I would leave school at 15 and go into the same factory that I served my apprenticeship in and then on your 16th birthday you would start the formal apprenticeship.

Sheet Metal Workers' Local Union No. 104:
What's the minimum age there right now, and what was it when you entered.

THE RIGHT HONORABLE MICHAEL MARTIN MP, SPEAKER:
The minimum when I entered was 16, and I would probably say that nowadays the minimum age would probably be 16, because a young person can leave school at 16. But, certainly they wouldn't be able to be a manual early-paid employee at 15. A young person nowadays could go straight from school and could enter an apprenticeship. But nowadays apprenticeships last 3 years and sometimes 4 years. Whereas in my days, it was a 5 year minimum apprenticeship. So, you would start at 16, and you wouldn't complete the apprenticeship until you were 21. That part about starting at 15 and working is what would be regarded as a young laborer—it was a form of cheap labor—and the 5 year apprenticeship was a way keeping the young tradesman's wage down as long as they possibly could.

Sheet Metal Workers' Local Union No. 104:
Is it much like that today?

THE RIGHT HONORABLE MICHAEL MARTIN MP, SPEAKER:
Much like today. There was no compulsory obligation to pay a better lease to the young apprentices. Some companies did give better lease, but there was no obligation.

Sheet Metal Workers' Local Union No. 104:
Did they send you to day school as an apprentice, or did you start by taking night classes.

THE RIGHT HONORABLE MICHAEL MARTIN MP, SPEAKER:
It was classes at night. Because the company I worked for, I would say that they were a very penny pinching company, and all that they were interested was really cheap labor. In fact, that's what directed me in the direction of the trades union movement.

Many of the conditions I worked under were dangerous, and sometimes as a young boy I didn't appreciate how dangerous they were. To send an apprentice away to a lease, would have meant that they were paying something in those days, 10p sterling. And so it was seen as a source-unit of labor—and that was the type of people you were dealing with. As a member, I worked with an electrical engineering company that made electrical heaters, the type of things you see in factories and, indeed, homes. And, asbestos compressed board was a good insulator of heat, and also it didn't carry electricity. It meant that the because of the elements in the fire, you could use asbestos board. They actually had me doing the asbestos, the white asbestos board. And, in fact, as an apprentice I quite enjoyed doing that, because, as you know with metal, the metal is often coated in an oil, which can stick to your clothes. And after that, this white powder was much more preferential to the oil of the 16ga. and 20ga. material. Nor did I know that it was a very dangerous material.

Sheet Metal Workers' Local Union No. 104:
So the trade union education, the classes you took, those were once you turned out as a journeyperson?

THE RIGHT HONORABLE MICHAEL MARTIN MP, SPEAKER:
Yes. The trade union education was nothing to do with the technical side of things. The classes at night were more to do with the skill classes, which were what they call vocational classes. But, I also did attend, and find more interesting to go to, the classes run by the trade union movement, which gave you training in, what you would call, plant bargaining, and also health and safety, and also public speaking. The TUC, the Trades Union Council, and the STUC ran that. It was very good for me because, to be honest with hindsight, maybe I should have stuck more to the technical side of my calling, but this interested me, the public speaking, and the trade union negotiations and health and safety. And, what we had was the TUC had the skill, and I think it was called the National Joint Colleges, I can't remember the proper name. But, there was a lecturer in Glasgow, and he was paid by the TUC. His name was Tom McKenna. And, Tom would come up at 7 o'clock three nights a week. He would teach the history of the trade union movement. He would teach you a bit of negotiations. And, he would also teach you on public speaking.

Now, what the teacher would also do, when he saw that you were a keen student, and three nights a week was quite heavy going, when he saw you were a keen student he would start to offer you weekend schools. And, this is where he would undertake to book a hotel and, perhaps if it was on a subject like negotiations, he would get some of the top trade union leaders in Scotland to come and lecture to us and answer questions. This, I find, was absolutely excellent. Tom was a very good, fun-loving Scotsman and there was also a facility for social entertainment because people worked in different factories, and if anybody got out of hand with the drinking, as it were, and they overindulged, they'd find that they weren't invited back to our seminar. So, I was always invited back. I must say that gave me good groundwork on the type of thing I enjoyed doing. And, I must say it would have been through those schools that I was able to become a full-time officer. I undertook to become, after a period, a Shop Steward in the trade, and I also went to Rolls Royce and Harrington, which is a big factory which specializes in the aero-engine industry, I was chosen to become a full-time officer with the National Union of Public Employees, NUPE for short. And, they like to have shop stewards from an engineering background because a lot of the membership were porters and culinary workers in the rail service, and many of them were not necessarily skilled in the art of negotiation. So, they would recruit from without their own union. And, I thoroughly enjoyed that experience.

Sheet Metal Workers' Local Union No. 104:
It sounds like a lot of this experience is paying off for you in your position today. In light of your great successes, I'm trying to equate how per capita you have so many politically active members from sheet metal and the trade unions who have now gone on to become members of Parliament, and what similar program could instill a greater sense of activism in our own membership. I'm wondering if you would equate that to these Saturday classes that…

THE RIGHT HONORABLE MICHAEL MARTIN MP, SPEAKER:
Yes. Yes. Well, what I can say is that I didn't set out to be a member of Parliament. I didn't set out to become Speaker of the House of Commons. But, I did have an ambition to be a Shop Steward. And, the reason I wanted to be a Shop Steward was to help my fellow man, simple as that. And, I always believe that people in the trade union movement are volunteers. They've got this thing in them, it could be a motivation or it could be a desire to be a good human being as they want to help their fellow man. And, I always took the view that if I could become a Shop Steward, then I could help and improve the working conditions of those around me. Not for selfish reasons, but a view that I could do something small and someone else could then take over until we get a workforce where there's good wages and conditions. Because I was brought up in a home where my father was basically a laborer, and he was forced to go to sea because he couldn't find work on the land. And, my grandfather was hurt by the terrible depression and he was seven years unemployed. So, I know the importance of work, and also the importance of good wages and conditions. I feel that if a man or a woman is going as a breadwinner in a home, and they are working in decent conditions and a decent environment, then it's going to be a better family life. And, of course, a good family life is going to mean that we're going to have a good society and a caring society. So, what I would say is that I would give encouragement to all of your members that don't go into education with a great ambition that you're going to seek a high office. The idea is to go in there so that you are better equipped to help your brothers and sisters. And, anything else that comes from that, whether you become a full-time officer or get involved in the political field, then that's a bonus. Isn't it. That's a bonus. All I can say is that I get involved politically because I enjoy politics.

I think there's a lot of wonderful human beings in the Labor and the Trade Union movement and also in politics in general. What I would say is that, as members get involved in education, then they will learn, and they will learn from the people that have gone before them. And, they will be better equipped; they will have more of a quality of life within the trade union movement. And, they will find that people will encourage them to go on. And that is what I would say in my life, trade unionists encouraged me to go on and to take office. Sometimes when I felt that I wasn't confident enough to do the job, they gave me encouragement. As people see that you are conscientious, then they will give you encouragement to go on and to push yourself. And, that is a very important thing. One final thing I would say is this, every day I have to make important decisions, and I always am able to draw on my Shop Steward experiences. I chair one of the most important bodies in the United Kingdom, and some would say in the world because it is the mother of Parliament, and I still draw on the experience that I received when I was the Chairman of the Shop Stewards Committee. I say, well, if you can handle an angry sheet metal worker, you can handle an angry Member of Parliament.

Sheet Metal Workers' Local Union No. 104:
I agree Mr. Speaker. I think that a commitment to Labor, if you are truly committed from your heart, you bring with that a sense of service.

THE RIGHT HONORABLE MICHAEL MARTIN MP, SPEAKER:
You put it in that—a sense of service. And, also, we should never forget where we came from, and I came from very humble beginnings. I am very proud of that; I've never been ashamed of it. And, fortunately for me, I still have all my brothers and sisters and if I get too big for my boots, they're the ones that will soon tell me. "Don't get any big ideas, Michael." And, also, I still keep in touch with my old pals in the trade union movement. I was on the phone yesterday to Wally Jepsen, and when the boys come up to the House of Commons, I always print in to see them. I'm in Glasgow every weekend. And, of course, I have a constituency. I'm still a Member of Parliament and I have to look after people's problems. All I can say is that the conditions that I had as a young boy, as a metal worker, they weren't so good. But, I went out to companies, like Rolls Royce, where the conditions were good. And, they were good there because of the Shop Stewards and the Trade Union Movement. They fought bit by bit to get better conditions, shift allowances, to do away with dangerous practices, and to see that people were treated with dignity. All I would like to thank, many of those men and women that I didn't know because they were before my time, but I would only like to hope that I put a bit back in to the community and also to society. I think that that's an important thing that you try to put more back into the community than what you get out of it.

Sheet Metal Workers' Local Union No. 104:
Thank you very much Mr. Speaker, and best wishes to you from the Sheet Metal Workers' International Association.

THE RIGHT HONORABLE MICHAEL MARTIN MP, SPEAKER:
It was nice to speak to you, and give my regards to all the people in the Sheet Metal Workers' Union.